echelon,s quick guide ( now a couple of years old ) to setting up a motorised system on a dish of up to 1.2 metres on a stab motor with a samsung 9500, if it helps then use this guide , if not then ignore it !!
it helps if you have an ****ogue receiver as well as a digital one , connected via the loop through if possible
The first thing to do is make sure your main pole is perfectly vertical.
secondly , set the dish elevation up , triax is 26 offset so 26 - (60-lat) = 26 - (60-53) = 26 - 7 = 19
thirdly , connect up the dish and motor on the ground and set the stab motor elevation to the correct setting for YOUR latitude, and then set the motor to the correct setting for YOUR longitude , in reference to a satellite , preferably thor at 0.8 degrees west
for my location in manchester area its 53.50 elevation on the motor inclination and I am 2.25 west so thor is east of me at 0.8 degrees so the equation is:-
The calc is 0.8w (thor sat) minus 2.25w (m/cr) **** that's (-0.8)-(-2.25) = +1.45 = 1.45 east
(convention is east is positive, west is negative)
so set the motor at 1.45 east for m/cr ( and store the position and calculate all sats too ) and then disconnect the motor and go DIRECT to the lnb itself , and then angle the dish by holding it until you get thor using bbc-world for digital or tv4 for ****ogue and leaving it on the signal ,
then alter the dish elevation adjuster until the pole mount bracket is vertical using a spirit level
this step proves everything is working and that you pick up the correct satellite and have set all the angles as close as possible whilst its easy to adjust them
then reconnect the motor and digital receiver and store the correct thor position if you didnt do it earlier and put the dish up onto your vertical mounting pole ( preferably a 50mm stainless steel pole or a 50mm galvanised scaffolding pole with sturdy brackets
Ok, then find Thor again with the motor manually placed at 1degW for your location ( 1.45 east for me ).
it is better and easier if you set it up on 1w, use bbc world for digital receivers
nice strong signal and in the clear, 11540/2600/3/4V
or use ****og tv4 (thor) 11389H
once this is set correctly then adjust the dish face using the elevation setting to get the best signal
Go to the Positioner setup in the Installation menu and change the bottom most option from USER to INSTALLER, and press ok.
Select Reset Positioner and press OK (the dish should move back to 0 deg)
Select Disable Limits and press OK again.
Then press exit, to return to the Positioner setup.
Change the bottom most option back to USER and press OK.
You should now be shown a signal strength indicator again, but this time you should also have N/S/E/W motor controls and the option to Store Position and Go To Position.
Using the Motor Controls on this screen, move the dish so that it can once again receive a signal from Thor (1degW).
Once found press OK and then select the Store Position option.
Now select the Calculate Positions option.
Now go back to the positioner setup, and select a different satellite (Hotbird 13E perhaps), and press ok.
Now select the go to position option and the dish should move to roughly the right place, fine tune this to get the best signal strength and select store position.
Repeat this last bit for any other satellites you want to view channels on, especially astra2 at 28.5 degrees east and hispasat at 30 degrees west.
Press exit until you return to the Installation menu, and select LNB Setup. For each of the satellites you found above, make sure that the bottom option (Positioner), is set ON.
Exit back to the Installer menu and select Automatic Scan.
For each of the satellites you found earlier, mark whether you want to scan for All channels or just free to air channels, and press OK.
It will now go to each of the satellites you found and search for the channels available on them.
if the dish needs further adjustments then refer to the dave-m tutorial below , and also note that you may have to fine tune each channel position manually and store it yourself
just as a footnote to tutorial above.
when searching for new satellites make sure the transponder you choose is actually transmitting at the time.
it will save you wasting time
If You cannot see the satellites in the west direction, You have to fine adjust the motor-mount to west.
If You cannot see the satellites in the east direction, You have to fine adjust the motor-mount to east.
Alternatively if you know which satellite you are on now then by knowing the diameter of the pole mount you can work out how many degrees per centimetre of the poles circumference there are. For a 2 inch pole there are roughly 22.5 degrees to a centimetre, for a three inch pole there are roughly 15.0 degrees to a centimetre
when setting the dish elevation you will usually find the correct setting for your latitude in the motor booklet, so start with that setting but bear in mind you may have to adjust it slightly to get the best signals
in my case its about 27.5 for a darkmotor at my location when using a triax td110 dish (which has an offset of 26 degrees)
this is 35 degrees minus the declination angle ( 35 - 7.5 = 27.5 degrees )
********************************* ********************************* ********************************* **
dave-m quick tutorial in a similar vein to the above
The first thing to do is make sure your main pole is perfectly vertical. Having done that, proceed as follows:
1. Position your mount to as near as you can by eye and compass, so that it is pointing directly due south at it's highest point (Usually zero on the scale).
2. There will be two adjustments for the elevation - and it's crucial you adjust the right ones at the right time. One is on the mount itself, determining the arc angle at which it tracks the heavens, and the other is on the dish. Look up (I think there's a utility at satcodx.com) the correct elevation for your location, and estimate the position on the adjuster *on the mount* (usually crudely marked and not always accurate).
3. Tune your receiver in to 1 degree west, preferably a weaker signal, and position your dish so as to get the best signal *without* adjusting the mount, but using the adjustment on the dish clamp.
4. Drive your dish, by operating the motor, around to a satellite well to the west, e.g. Hispasat at 30ºW. Adjust the elevation on the dish clamp so as to get the best signal. This may take some time, but DO NOT adjust the mount settings at this point, only the dish.
5. Drive the dish back to due south (1 degree west), and move *the mount itself* up or down back to the strongest signal.
6. Repeat steps 4 and 5. The adjustments needed at each point should get smaller, and after 2 or 3 tries you should need no further adjustment.
7. Test you have the arc correct by going to a satellite well round to the East, e.g. Astra2. If the dish elevation is correct, you've finished: if it is not, your pole is not vertical, straighten the pole and start again.
********************************* ********************************* ********************************* **
useful channels to look for:-
********************************* ********************************* **************ogue
TV4 Thor 1west 11389Hor
C****+ spain 30west 12591Hor
STV 42east 11122Hor
********************************* ********************************* ************************
use single encryption files in the internal slots , like via , seca , nagra , conax etc ( you can use fun , silver or goldcards for these single files )
get an irdeto type cam for 6in1 files
ie:- to use 6in1 files you need to use an irdeto type cam, or freecam , or a magic-module cam as the files are irdeto based and irdeto is not included in either an unpatched receiver or a patched one at the moment
get your latitude and longitude from the above link
You can also use _www.streetmap.co.uk, stick your postcode in hit search and then click on the 'click here to convert /measure coordinates' Its in the blue box under the map
Another one (world-wide) gives Lat long elevation etc.
Use the Hybrid tag to get to your house
and sly in europe
pictures of various arcs below, as well as the use of a suitably sized exhaust clamp on the main pole below the motor to prevent slippage
How to install DiSEqC Motors
A Riggers Rough Guide to DiSEqC Motorised Installations
Select your installation site carefully!!!
There must be a clear line of sight between the required satellites and the entire surface of the dish. The line of sight must be free from obstructions, such as trees, roof tiles etc.
It is very important to make sure the mount is fixed to a perfectly vertical mast. Time spent measuring this accurately will save you hours later on.
Set the DiSEqC mount back to zero degrees by connecting the receiver to the mount. The receiver must be on for the mount to move. It’s easier to do this before fixing the H-H mount onto the mast.
5. Once you have done this, the mount should then
be disconnected from the receiver.
6. Fit the H-H mount onto the mast and do the nuts up finger tight.
7.Use an inclinometer to set the H-H mount angle. See picture on the right.
8. This angle should be calculated from the latitude of the installation location. See the chart below for details.
JOHN O GROATS 58.39°
LANDS END 50.03°
9.Fit the dish on to the front of the H-H mount arm and tighten the nuts. The middle of the dish clamp must be lined up with the centre line on the H-H mount arm. See the picture on the right
10. Connect the LNB to a good quality meter, such as an EP314 from Unaohm or a handheld AD 70 meter. Firstly you will need to find Intelsat 707 at 1° west. See below for other suggested meter settings.
5 / 6
5 / 6
2 / 3
INTELSAT 707 1W
3 / 4
3 / 4
11. Move the dish back and forth by moving the H-H mount clamp attached to the vertical mast. Make sure the dish remains on the centre line displayed on the H-H mount arm.
12. You will also have to adjust the elevation to the dish to peak the signal.
13. When adjusting these two movements, use the meter to measure the signal. Once the signal has peaked, tighten the dish elevation.
14. Next, move the dish back by 1° by moving the H-H mount clamp attached to the vertical mast. This will give you the south position required.
15. This is a small movement and with experience, can be guessed fairly accurately. Take note of the signal loss on the meter, which occurs when this small movement is achieved.
16. Tighten the nuts on the H-H mount clamp attached to mast.
17. By following these instructions accurately, you should now have installed your dish on the arc.
18. To test your installation, re-connect the receiver to the H-H mount.
19. With the satellite meter still connected, select Astra 28.2E on the meter.
20. Move the dish east by pressing the small east button underneath the H-H mount.
21. Peak the signal on the meter for Astra 28.2E until you believe it is as good as you can get by moving both east and west.
22. If you cannot improve the signal by leaning the dish back and forth then you have probably correctly found one side of the arc for the dish.
23. With the satellite meter still connected select Hispasat 30w on the meter.
24. Move the dish west by pressing the small west button underneath the H-H mount.
25. Peak the signal on the meter for Hispasat 30w until you believe it is as good as you can get by moving both east and west.
26. If you cannot improve the signal by leaning the dish back and forth then you have correctly found the arc for the dish.
How to motorise your dish easily
<< Its easier & faster to search for satellites with an an*logue receiver
There are many advantages to a motorised set up compared to a fixed system the most obvious is the amount of extra satellites and channels you will have access to.
For most users within the U.K a 1.2m dish should prove an acceptable size.
For some weaker signals like the ones from Sirius 5east and Nilesat 7west you would have to increase your dish size to around 2m for a good signal strength for the UK.
If you already have a fixed dish set up,and its at least 80cm in diameter as this is the recommended minimum size for motorising,but remember you will not receive as much signal with an 80cm as you would with a 1.2m or bigger.
Using a STAB Motor/Mount
The easiest way to motorise your dish would be with a 'STAB' or Motek or Icecrypt or Darkmotor motor/mount.
This will require your 'Digital Receiver' to be DISqC 1.2 compatible
if it is compatible with DISqC 1.2 then you will not require additional wiring or positioners, it works off your C0-Axial cable the cable runs from your Lnb connector on your receiver to the motor/mount and from a second connector on the motor/mount to the Lnb on your dish.
Before you fix the motor/mount to the wall/ground stand you will have to set the angles. point the motor/mount to the South fix the dish to the motor/mount with the brackets provided; align the dish to motor/mount find your geographical position a map is usually included with a new motor/mount; so just look up your location using the supplied map
once you have set up your long/latitude all you have to do is turn the complete motor/mount to the satellite you wish to find making sure the correct channel is selected on your receiver
make sure the lnb has no left or right "skew" when the motor is pointing at the zero marker
once that has been done and you are satisfied with the results tighten al bolts holding your motor/mount to the wall/ground mount then on your receiver choose another satellite and if the above has been done correctly the chosen satellite will display the channels as long as the dish is of the correct size and if encrypted you will be required to have access to it with a valid viewing card.
If your receiver has the 'GOTO' function then you will not even have to calculate the positions of every satellite, as the 'GOTO' function will work out the position of where every satellite is located for you from the long/latitude of your location all you have to do is enter the correct values for your location
it is better and easier if you set it up on 1w, I always use bbc world news as its a nice strong signal and in the clear (FTA)
once this is set correctly then adjust the dish elevation (start with the figure in the motor booklet) until you get best picture, you can now test the arc
I think you will find that all visible sats are now receivable on the receiver
One last tip if you have set the dish up and you get some only one polarity but not the other try turning the Lnb on the dish slightly about 5 degrees clockwise until you get a picture.
A a solid dish will outperform a mesh dish every time.
funke 0.99m offset angle = 00 degrees
triax 1.10m offset angle = 26 degrees
Location Long Lat
Aberdeen 2.11 W 57.13 N
Edinburgh 3.21 W 55.95 N
Glasgow 4.25 W 55.86 N
Newcastle 1.60 W 54.97 N
Belfast 5.95 W 54.60 N
Hull 0.30 W 53.75 N
Manchester 2.25 W 53.50 N
Liverpool 3.00 W 53.41 N
Dublin 6.30 W 53.35 N
Galway 9.06 W 53.28 N
Grt/Yarmouth 1.75 E 52.66 N
Norwich 1.28 E 52.00 N
Birmingham 1.91 W 52.50 N
Bedford 0.48 W 52.13 N
Ipswich 1.63 E 52.00 N
Cork 8.66 W 52.00 N
Swindon 1.78 W 51.55 N
London 0.10 W 51.53 N
Cardiff 3.18 W 51.46 N
Bristol 2.58 W 51.43 N
Dover 1.31 E 51.00 N
Southampton 1.38 W 50.90 N
Brighton 0.15 W 50.83 N
Plymouth 4.15 W 50.38 N
ADJUSTING THE POLARMOUNT
If the adjustments are done in the correct order, you can get a dish that tracks just perfect. You should have an unwarped satellite dish, and a straight ground pole, it will make things easier.
1- Start with checking the mounting of the feed horn. All the legs on the tripod should be of the same length. You should measure them, and do any adjustment you can if they are not the same length. Next, you have to check the distance from three different points on the edge of the dish, to the center of the feed horn. Remember, even if the tripod legs have the same length, that does not mean the feed is centered! You might have to "bend" the feed back into center of dish, or adjusting the tripod legs to get the feed centered in the dish.
2- Set the off-set angle on your polar mount (declination). This is an adjustment that tilts the dish *forwards* at an angle of about 4-6 degrees, depending on what latitude you live. You can find the exact angle for your location in charts, but if you set it for about 5 degrees, you'll be close enough to get going. This adjustment is usually done on one of the mounts connected directly to the dish.
3- You then move the dish to the highest point on your polar mount. You do this by using the actuator. You can do this by visually looking at the dish and the polar mount. You are basically centering the dish on the highest point on the polar mount. Now, you have to set the elevation angle of the dish. I like to use a meter for this, but it is also possible to do it without. The elevation angle is about 40 degrees, depending on your latitude. This is not very critical at this point because you will adjust this angle for best reception later. If you measure the angle on the mount, you might have to add the declination angle to get the true dish pointing angle.
4- You need to find a satellite that is located just south of your location. In most cases, there is a satellite close to the longitude you live. A few degrees off will not make much difference because the dish moves almost flat in the center of arc. Try a Ku band satellite because the accuracy is much higher. However, you might look for a C band satellite when you start. It will be easier to find than a Ku band satellite. Having the dish parked at the highest point of the arc, you have to turn the WHOLE polar mount on the ground pole to you hit the satellite. If your elevation was way off, you might not even get a signal. Adjust the elevation and turn the mount again until you find the satellite located "straight south".
5- Fine tune the elevation angle. Turn the mount sideways until max signal and then adjust the elevation angle until its maxed. At this point, you have set the off-set angle and the elevation angle for the satellite at the highest point in the arc.
6- Now, you have to get the dish to track on the sides of the arc. This is where most people fail. DO NOT adjust any elevation angles on the mount at this point! Move the dish using the actuator to a satellite on one side of your arc. You should hopefully see the signal from the satellite, if not, pick a satellite closer to the center of the arc. Peak the dish on the satellite using the actuator. Next, you have to push or pull upwards and downwards on the dish. You don't have to use much force, just a bit to see if the signal gets better or worse when you push/pull on the dish. What you are actually doing is to change the elevation angle a bit. If your dish is pointing at a satellite to the east of center and you have to push up on the dish to get a better signal, then the elevation angle must be adjusted higher. You adjust this by turning the WHOLE mount to the east! You have to use the actuator and move the dish a bit west to peak the signal. You go back and forth until the dish has the correct elevation. Next, you have to check a satellite on the other side of the arc. If you peaked the dish for center, and then for one side, the other side should be very close. This will depend on your ground pole, offset angle/elevation angle and quality of feed/dish.
7- If your dish is not hitting center on the other side, try the same adjustment as above. If the dish needs to be pushed up to get a better signal, then TURN the WHOLE mount in that direction. If the dish needs to be pulled down for a better signal, then turn the mount the opposite direction (towards the higher point on arc).
8- Then, go back and check the other side. Hopefully, you're not far off. You might have to go from side to side before your dish tracks perfectly.
9- If, and ONLY if you can not get both sides to peak, both sides would be too low or too high. You can then do a small adjustment of the declination (elevation) angle to get the two sides into peak. BUT, only do this if you can confirm that both sides are low or high. If the dish is to high on the sides, but fine in the center, the declination angle is to low. Increase the declination and the elevation angle the same amount. They will cancel each other in the center of arc, but track lower on the sides.
10- You should now have a perfectly peaked dish If you used Ku band satellites for the peaking, it will be as good as it can get. If you used C band satellites, you might want to do the same thing using Ku band satellites.
ps:- found this answer on toes regarding madeira which is close to the canaries
Took this from a Ex-Pat site.
For northern Spain, dish size requirements for Sky TV are 1.2m, but a 1.8m - 2.4m dish (minimum) may be needed for reliable Sky TV reception in Madrid, Barcelona and Malaga.
For Portugal a 1.8m dish is the recommended dish.
The island of Madeira requires a large dish of approximately 3m for reliable reception of all Sky TV channels.
Strongest transponders update compiled by william-1
LATEST LIST HERE ( JULY 2013 )
Strongest & Weakest Transponder List 16th July 2013
This guide is to assist in setting up a satellite dish (motorised or fixed)
46 east to 45 west in DVB-S MPEG-2 unless stated
100cm Gibertini Dish + Inverto 0.2 Black Ultra
AzerSpace-1 at 46 east Dari 1 11014 H 28500
Intelsat 12 at 45.0°E Prima TV 11523 V 5787
T*rksat 2A at 42.0°E CNN Türk 11804 V 24444
Hellas Sat 2 at 39.0°E The Voice 12524 H 30000
Eutelsat 36B at 36.0°E Lider TV 12520 H 4340
Eutelsat 33A at 33.2°E TV 8 Mont Blanc 11105 H 2441
Astra 2F at 28.2°E Channel 5 10964 H 22000
Badr 4 at 26.0°E Al Manar 11958 H 27500
Eutelsat 25C @ 25.5 east Assirat 11662 V 2150
Astra 3B at 23.5°E TV Oost 11914H 27500
Eutelsat 21B at 21.5°E Yemen Today TV 11601 V 2170
Astra 2C at 19.2°E Das Erste 11836 H 27500
Eutelsat 16A at 16.0°E Al Jazeera Balkans 12676 H 4248
Eutelsat Hot Bird 13A at 13.0°E Bloomberg 11137 H 27500
Eutelsat 10A at 10.0°E Aljazeera Package 11400 H 7815
Eutelsat 9A at 9.0°E CCTV 9 Docu 11938 H 27500
Eutelsat 7A at 7.0°E BBC Persian 10721 H 22000
Astra 4A at 4.8°E RADA 11766 H 27500
Eutelsat 3C at 3.1°E TV5 Europe 12715 H 18907 S2 MPEG-4
Thor 5 at 0.8°W BBC World News 11861 H 28000
Amos 2 at 4.0°W TA3 10806 V 30000 S2 MPEG-4
Eutelsat 5 West A at 5.0°W France Ô 11591 V 20000
Eutelsat 7 West A at 7.3°W MBC Persian 12399 V 27500
Eutelsat 8 West A at 8.0°W Cairo Drama 11137 H 22000
Express AM44 at 11.0°W TG Norba 24 11551 H 1600
Eutelsat 12 West A at 12.5°W RTV BN BH 11157 H 2900
Telstar 12 at 15.0°W Zagros TV 10997 V 5090
Intelsat 901 at 18.0°W Data *** 11606 H 12000
NSS-7 at 20 west Data 12744 H 5600
SES 4 at 22.0°W Reuters Live 10985 H 7200
Intelsat 905 at 24.5°W NTA Int 11674 V 27500
Intelsat 907 at 27.5°W UK FreeSat (Encrypted) 11495 V 44100 DVB-S2
Hispasat 1E at 30.0°W Euronews 12130 H 27500 S2 MPEG-4
Intelsat 903 at 34.5°W Data Stream 11027 v 5000 DVB-S2
Telstar 11N at 37.5°W Al Nabaa TV promo 12526 H 2000 S2 MPEG-4
Intelsat 14 at 45.0°W Al Nassr TV TCHAD 11487 V 1238 S2
"Satellites with only strong transponders excluded from this list"
AzerSpace-1 at 46 east Rossiya 24 11134 H 27500
T*rksat 3A at 42.0°E TRT Müzik 12569 H 2800
Eutelsat 36B at 36.0°E Al Jazeera Channel 12621 V 2893
Badr 4 at 26.0°E MBC tv 11919 H 27500
Eutelsat 25C at 25.5 east Top Movies 11390 H 27500
Eutelsat 21B at 21.5°E Al Falstiniah TV 10978 V 2170
Eutelsat 16A at 16.0°E Albanian Screen 11108 V 2821
Eutelsat 10A at 10.0°E Syria tv 12727 H 2894
Astra 4A at 4.8°E 1st Baltic Music 11843 H 27500
Eutelsat 3C at 3.1°E San Marino TV 11040 H 2200
Intelsat 10-02 at 1.0°W Realitatea 12687 H 27500
Amos 2 at 4.0°W ECO tv 10722 H 27500
Eutelsat 5 West A at 5.0°W Canal Algeria 11059 H 23700
Eutelsat 7 West A at 7.3°W 11641 H Bahrain tv
Express AM44 at 11.0°W Press tv 11109 H 9480
Telstar 12 at 15.0°W MAC TV 12608 H 19279
Signals received in your location may not be the same as mine this is a guide for the East of England
This list was compiled by William-1
the strongest and most used satellites for reception in the uk are
42e , 39e , 28.2e , 23.5e , 19e , 16e , 13e , 10e , 7e , 5e , 0.8w , 5w , 8w , 15w , 27.5w , 30w
the ones that are harder to get and may need big dishes with top quality lnb`s are
26e , 4w , 7.0 w , 7.3w , 12.5w
there may be other minor ones people use as well, for feeds or specialist channels, so check the full list at the top of this post for more details
Motek sg 2100 motor instruction booklets (silent gold)
ICECRYPT DM-101 DiSEqC 1.2 / USALS Dish Motor same as Moteck SG2100a
Specially Designed for Receivers with DiSEqC 1.2 and USALS.
Only One Coaxial Cable for Signal and Control.
Go To X Function.
Ultra Low Noise.
Adjustable Hardware Limits.
Easy Installation with LED Indicator.
Manual EAST / WEST button.
For Dish up to 1.2M.
some old info on techwatch
Code:The Moteck motors do indeed seem to come in two varieties - one requiring 30 degrees - declination angle and one 40 degrees - declination angle - so I would initially go with what your documents say. I have the slightly older SG2100 (as opposed to the SG2100A) and it says 40 - declination, but in your case your calculation will look something like this: 30 - 7.42 (the declination angle for your latitude of 51.7 degrees) = 22.58 Therefore 22.58 degrees is the angle you should set on the dish scale of the Triax. Simple as that. If you want to actually measure the angles yourself, then you can - but you'll need to take into account the motor elevation angle, the actual declination angle (by using a straight-edge against the top and bottom lips of the dish face) and the offset angle of the dish itself (from the manufacturers specs). I don't remember what the offset angle for the old TD88 is, but the new TDE88 is 26 degrees which is standard for triax dishes
The TM 2200, 2300, and 2600 are just slightly updated copies of the Moteck SG2100a apart from they are more robust and have metal gears.
Code:TM-2600 DiSEqC Motor Image 1 Highlights Metal Gear Ultra Low Noise Faster than before!* Compatible with DiSEqC 1.2 & 1.3 Adjustable Hardware Limits For dishes up to 1.4m Our new generation of DiSEqC motors are 35% faster and 20% quieter than before!* The strong, compact and high-quality TM-2600 is simple to use from your satellite receiver and is built to last. The motor, cogs, components... are all high-grade, high-quality to ensure that the motor will last, even if you change satellites more than 15 times a day! Compared to the TM-2300, the TM-2600's main cog is made from metal. This is to ensure greater durability and strength. The motor is compatible with DiSEqC 1.2 & 1.3 (goto X) protocols, therefore it will work with compatible satellite receivers on the market. *When compared to the TM-2200 Ultra Low Noise Faster than before!* Compatible with DiSEqC 1.2 & 1.3 Adjustable Hardware Limits (East/West Limits) For dishes up to 1.2m Controlled via 1 coaxial cable Zero play to avoid loss of signal LED for Status Check Manual Move Button
triax dishes , in pdf format (view with adobe reader)
a scan of the first 3 pages of my TRIAX TD110 paperwork , circa 2001