Problem setting up dish and motor

[echelon]

I have had my triax TD110 for about 12 years and its been on a stab h2h 120 , a moteck sg2100 and now a darkmotor superior and no problems with any of them apart from the first 2 motors ended up with play in the gearing. my darkmotor has been up for about 18 months and I have had no issues with it or my 1.1m triax dish, running from a spiderbox (so I disagree with your assumptions about using a td110 on a darkmotor)

in fact, you do not see anyone else apart from you complaining about these dishes and motors, the majority of us use them both quite successfully

I believe you have too many variables in your system , so you have nothing that you can bet your life on in order to do the job

I still have my trusty tm1500 , and a spiderbox, either of which I can use to line up my motor using usals or diseqc, and knowing I can trust either of them implicitly (my spiderbox has been used to line up a few dishes and motors over the years)

on the other hand I dont trust any linux box or its images at all with a motor, never having had much luck with them on any motor, I even had trouble using my lads solo running BH to realign his sly dish when we changed his lnb to a quad, so I had to use the tm1500 just to be sure

[gbmitie]

its the aim of the dish thats wrong, if you stand behind it when dish is at 0( zero) then everything should align in a dead straight line its sound easy but its not. that dark motor has a line in it that I use for centering, the triax fixing is not that great, I count the screw threads, the lnb arm could be sagging, the pole might be crushed slightly, and you may have an obstruction, lnb should be a black ultra. I would concentrate on 0.8w get bbc word at 98% quality or better where you are. there is a video on u tube about motorised and it shows the alignment with 3 dots.

and i use a spiderbox to move dark motor.

and when you get it sorted post back.

[dog-man]

I seem to also have a problem where the motor will not move at all when it should.
The only two ways to get it going again is to either do a restart / reboot of my image (openpli 3) or do a search for channels on any satellite. The dish will then move to that sat and scan in the channels.

I wonder if my image is corrupt?

I may well re-flash the image again and start from scratch.

I am using 0.8w as a starting point and can get that at about 89% on BBC World, but 19.2e only comes in around 55%. It has always come in at around 90% or more.

Nothing in the way and I get the same problems with my new black ultra and my old smart lnb.

My pole is definitely level, I have a proper post level (I have two and have used both).

I shall wait for a good day weather wise and start again from scratch, checking everything.

[gbmitie]

It sounds like the USALS in the receiver you are using is not accurate. You can tweak the usals by adjusting the location minutely. Say you are on 0.8w and you have usals at 0.898w and 51.9n, then change the settings minutely so that dish will step either east or west. eg use 1.000w and 51.6n, save it and dish will move, check signal levels etc. Another way is to switch to diseq on 0.8w and peak the signal, if you cant get close to 98 then dish is out.

but what receiver are you using and do you have a spare receiver to try?

[dog-man]

I am using a vuduo.

I have some receivers laying around gathering dust, such as a DB7020, a Humax HD2000, and maybe a few other older ones.

The vuduo has always worked faultlessly.

It's only the lnb and the motor that are a new addition, and the fact I am now using Usals. I get the same problems on my old lnb too.

I am going to re-flash my image with todays downloadable image and see if the problems continue and take it from there.
I have a very large hammer waiting to smash everything to pieces as I am losing my patience now!

[echelon]

firstly , you need to take an anger management course if its really getting to you that much
(as a dog-man you are being too DOG-MAtic in your approach to this)

secondly, as has been pointed out to you on numerous occasions, you need to rely on a receiver that is reliable and giving you accurate and correct results, one that you can trust implicitly to help you set your motor up

clearly the linux boxes are not helping you to set up this motor (they have never helped me either as I have mentioned throughout this thread) and the fact that its all down to various images never helps either

use a bespoke box (not linux) and add a channel list and use that to setup fta on your motor , and until that has been done forget about using your duo or dreamboxes, if necessary borrow or buy a cheap tm1500 or tm5000 series or 6000 series or anything similar that is cheap and gets the job done

once you have set up the motor correctly with the bespoke box (half an hour with a spiderbox), you can then use the bespoke box as a positioner whilst you setup your linux boxes accordingly

only when you have done the above are you then in a position to try to use the linux boxes as both positioners and to check signals etc because you have then eliminated all the other variables apart from the linux box + image

in other words, I have no doubt most of your troubles lie in trying to use a linux box you dont trust to setup your new motor and dish and lnb

[dog-man]

But I have used a Linux box for several years when setting up and they have never let me down.

I am now wondering if there is a fault with my vuduo, because I am getting more instances of the motor simply not moving at all when selecting a channel on a different satellite.
When this happens, there is usually no indication on screen that it is moving.

All connections have been double checked and are ok.

I shall dig out another box when I have time and the weather is good.

As for anger management, a good thrash around with the hammer will cure it!

[echelon]

perhaps when you have stopped all the messing, you might want to follow the advice by myself and gbmitie and use a box you know can do the job when aligning motors and dishes, tried and tested over the same period you are talking about, but less likely to be the box or image or patch causing problems

maybe your humax can do this ? (I have no idea)

but if you want to retain your sanity you need to ditch the linux boxes whilst doing this task, that is as obvious as the shard is a tall tower in london !

[dog-man]

Before I use another receiver (non Linux) I am just trying a re-flash of the image and so far the dish is moving to a satellite every time, but early days yet to be confident.

I am sure I have a manhatten receiver somewhere that I can try.

[echelon]

I thought the manhatten needed a vbox with diseqc motors, but if it is diseqc its got to be worth a go

[dog-man]

Its a Manhattan Plaza xt-cm. I purchased it purely for blind scanning some years ago.
The front of the receiver states it has diseqc and usals.

Just started raining and its in for the rest of the day allegedly, so rain stops play.

I have just remembered that my TBS 6925 has diseqc facility, not sure about usals, so that's another possibility.

[dog-man]

As it is raining, I am busy manually scanning satellites and so far, the motor has worked flawlessly so perhaps the image was corrupt.

Time will tell!

[dog-man]

Sadly after scanning all the satellites my dish can see from my location, the dish not moving problem was there again.

After some investigation, it seems that I had configured the two tuners incorrectly.

I configured tuner 'A' as simple / positioner.
I configured tuner 'B' as equal to tuner 'A'.

Tuner 'B' should have been set as 'loop through to tuner 'A'.

It seems to be functioning correctly now.

Now, I can double check the pole, and dish alignment knowing that the dish is moving correctly to where it should be moving to.

Rain stops play, but at least I am now on my way to finally sorting this out.

[tobyman6]

Hi dog-man,
I,ve been trying for weeks to get a complete arc from 30 deg West to 42 deg East,using a Supreme Dark motor.
No matter how I set up I always end up with a part arc,
Ive tried every combination of elevation/declination angles, diseqc 1.2 /usals,repositioned goto 0,all with same results never a complete arc !
Ive also noticed the LED gives different positions to actual ie 48 E instead of 42 E ( .8W as .8W ) 32W instead of 30W
My mount pole is perfectly vertical.
By altering just the declination angle of the dish from where it is set on 42 E to a different angle for 30W I pick up the satellites every time, so i know the motor is stopping at the right positions,but the arc is never right!
When I set my old motor CRYPTIK (Stab) back up from scratch within 15 mins i,ve get the complete arc,
I,ve set up on 2 different vertical mounts and get same results from both
This is making me think the geometry of the Supreme motor is not correct!
Any thoughts ??
Regards ,
toby

[echelon]

Hi dog-man,
I,ve been trying for weeks to get a complete arc from 30 deg West to 42 deg East,using a Supreme Dark motor.
No matter how I set up I always end up with a part arc,
Ive tried every combination of elevation/declination angles, diseqc 1.2 /usals,repositioned goto 0,all with same results never a complete arc !
Ive also noticed the LED gives different positions to actual ie 48 E instead of 42 E ( .8W as .8W ) 32W instead of 30W
My mount pole is perfectly vertical.
By altering just the declination angle of the dish from where it is set on 42 E to a different angle for 30W I pick up the satellites every time, so i know the motor is stopping at the right positions,but the arc is never right!
When I set my old motor CRYPTIK (Stab) back up from scratch within 15 mins i,ve get the complete arc,
I,ve set up on 2 different vertical mounts and get same results from both
This is making me think the geometry of the Supreme motor is not correct!
Any thoughts ??
Regards ,
toby

I think the problem with some of your post is that like 99% of people doing this, you think that the degree indicator on the motor relates to the actual degree position relative to the zero true south of all of the satellites (you incorrectly believe they should be exactly the same)

it doesnt, not unless you are actually on the greenwich meridian anyway (as zero on the motor is zero on the meridian)

so let us assume that 13e hotbird was your true south, then your zero pointer (or led) would be on zero but your true meridian is 13e, meaning that in theory 30 west is 43 degrees west of your true south , however your motor is still pointing at 13e when reading zero

but if you were in western ireland at say 5.0w then your zero would point at 5w satellite and hotbird would in theory be 18 degrees east of you

so because the zero meridian of greenwich was placed here in the uk we are not far away from the zero marker on motors and so we tend to forget this when we align them, meaning we are normally a few degrees out and this upsets the arc

so in my case I am more than 2 degrees away from the greenwich meridian and so my darkmotor superior zero is set to around 2.5w (or maybe more towards 5.0w) meaning that if I park my dish on 30w the motor pointer is obviously not on 30w as you seem to expect, but is going to be a few degrees out from this on the motor pointer, and yet the motor is actually pointed at 30w and fox sports comes booming in, similarly if I am on bulsat on 39e the motor pointer is not going to point at 39e but something a few degrees away from that

when you also take into account the latitude setting of the motor has a bearing on all of this (unless you were in greenwich) then its fair to say that for most people the motor pointer is never going to relate to the actual sat position, but you have assumed they are one and the same, never forget that the word ASSUME contains ASS U ME !!

so I would discount this completely, make sure your pole is plumb , that your zero marker is pointing at your true south (your longitude), the motor latitude elevation is on your exact latitude , and start from all of those those non-variables

set the usals on your box to your gps position (your longitude and latitude) and select say thor at 0.8w , bbc world news or sly news , the motor will go to where it determines thor to be from your gps, this may well not be 0.8w on the led indicator (unless your true south is 0.00), but you can be assured its where it thinks thor is located according to your longitude and latitude, so really you IGNORE the led or motor pointer at this point as you know that the box has sent it to the correct position, then you find thor my moving the motor mount left or right and the dish elevation up or down , and lock it up and test it

ps:- I think you made a typo here as they are both the same ( .8W as .8W )

[grafter]

This is making me think the geometry of the Supreme motor is not correct!

Not relevant to your problem but I've only set up one Dark Motor and no matter how we tried to reset/send to zero it always went back so the indicator and seam were about 2E. Following that line through the dish and boom it was obvious to see that it was not straight. I got it tracking OK in the end but it took longer than normal and I definitely don't want to see another one, nasty bit of junk!

One of my dishes is on a 2100A and when I put the dish on it I took a photo from underneath that showed both the motor and dish, dropped it into Paintshop and drew a line from the LNB to the back of the motor, you can very quickly see how accurate the alignment is. As Echelon says eliminating the non variables before you start the L/R U/D stuff really is worth the extra few minutes it takes to do.

[tobyman6]

Thanks for your helpful replies.
@ echelon,
My Latitude is 2.21 west so I have set thor at 3.0 west as a starting point.
So i would expect my arc to be 33 west (30w) to 39 east (42E) ish !
However my LED gives a larger arc reading 33W to 45 E,
The scale on the elevation angle is clear but the pointer is very poor, and hard to guage,
However I have set latitude well above and below the elevation angle ( and every position inbetween) and have not been able to get the full arc correct
That is why I,m thinking the Dark Motor,s geometry might be wrong, especially as Ive set my old Cryptik motor in exactly the same way and get a full arc.
(I,d also add that when i stripped my old Cryptik motor down , i could nt believe how well it was made, steel worm gear , all brass gears, rebuilt and its as good as when puchased some 15 yrs ago - very basic compared to new models but built to last)
@ grafter,
Thanks for your Paintshop tip, will use it!

[echelon]

if you are at 2.21 west of the greenwich meridian then with thor being only 0.8 east of the greenwich meridian its actually 1.41 east of you, not at 3 west as you seem to think , so you appear to have set up your system as if you are at approx 2.1 east ( in the north sea off great yarmouth, or at DUNKIRK, not on a line with Stoke-On-trent), not west, a difference of about 4.4 degrees, so its no wonder you do not track the arc correctly !

2.21w - 0.8w = 1.41 east (of your location) for thor

3 west of you is actually the strong satellite at 5 west, eutelsat 5w a (2.79w of you) with hispasat at about 27.8w of you

clearly you still did not take onboard my point that your motor zero marker points at true south, in your case 2.21 west, also your latitude changes the way the motor reacts as well, but I also mentioned that you should IGNORE your motor markers and use the fixed points I mentioned of pole being plumb, latitude fixed to your actual latitude and the lnb having no skew when its on the true south marker of zero on the motor ( so little or no skew at 0.8w either) and use usals after setting your box up with your location

so if you are going to mark a motor with thor using a black marker or tippex, mark it at about 1.5 east on the motor markings, not 3 west, drive the motor to it and stop, disconnect the motor and go to the lnb itself and use bbc world news or sly news to locate thor, and lock it all up

or use your marker at 3w to find eutelsat 5w and lock it up as that is more like what it should be

ps , its your LONGITUDE that is 2.21w , not your latitude , your latitude will be somewhere between about 51 and 58 north

so the only things I can see wrong are your definitions and your computations, not your motor

[tobyman6]

Problem solved !!
Silly mistake ,would have been easier to have set up either side of true south ie 7 E for 5E or as you advised 3W for 5W,
However my big problem , was the latitude setting, in their manual they give you both latitude & elevation angles
I thought the scale on the motor was in elevation ,when I looked closer it was latitude, so I was somewhere in the Mediterranean. ( thats why i was questioning the geometry of the motor)
I got the angles backwards.
Thanks for your help,